David Sloan: Welcome to the State of Accessibility podcast from Vispero. I'm David Sloan, Chief Accessibility Officer for Vispero, and each month I'm joined by a guest or two to discuss a topic of interest and relevance to the practice and profession of digital accessibility.
David Sloan: So, this is episode 19, and for this episode, for May 2026, we're marking the 15th Annual Global Accessibility Awareness Day, or GAAD for short.
David Sloan: Which takes place on May 21st.
David Sloan: GAAD is now well established in the calendars of accessibility… the accessibility community as a time to highlight the value of accessibility efforts, to share knowledge, and to celebrate the progress that we've made.
David Sloan: Now, Vispero's involved in a range of GAAD activities this year, but for the podcast, we wanted to focus on exploring their experience from the perspective of people who use assistive technology daily.
David Sloan: We have data from accessibility surveys, such as this year's WebAIM Million survey, an automated accessibility scan of a million homepages.
David Sloan: And the data suggests that things aren't getting better at the rate we'd want, but that's data from automated scans. What about the user's perspective? What's got better? Where do issues still remain? And where should we prioritize our design, development, advocacy efforts?
David Sloan: So, joining me for this podcast discussion are two people whose perspectives I'm really keen to learn more about. My Vispero coworkers, Isabel Holdsworth, Assistive Technology Engineer, and Dane Geer, Technical Support Specialist. So, welcome to the podcast, Isabel and Dane.
Isabel Holdsworth: Hello.
Dane Geer: Thank you. Hello!
David Sloan: So, let's start off by talking about your assistive technology setup. What do you use, and what sort of customization… customizations do you apply to your assistive technology? And I'll ask you, Dane, first, to share your setup.
Dane Geer: Yeah, so I use Fusion as my primary assistive technology software.
Dane Geer: I use a 34-inch widescreen monitor, with a… I really like the gaming keyboards, with the way they type. It's really nice. I always use the, Windows dark mode, because I like the black background with…
Dane Geer: white writing, And, basically, using… using JAWS, you know, in conjunction with Fusion.
Dane Geer: It helps me be able to perform my job, and
Dane Geer: Remote into people's computers and get them all fixed up.
Dane Geer: Basically, that's my setup.
David Sloan: So you're… you're including an aspect of screen magnification there as well, is that right?
Dane Geer: Yes, I usually run around 6 times magnification, depending on
Dane Geer: the situation. Sometimes I have to move it up higher due to the remote aspect of remoting into individuals' computers and adjusting their settings.
David Sloan: Cool. And when… when would you use JAWS? You know, what…
David Sloan: situation. Is that always running, or is it only at certain times?
Dane Geer: That's this…
Dane Geer: It's always running, sometimes I'll put on speech on demand if I don't need speech at the moment, but it is always running through Fusion.
Dane Geer: But it's a very key, a very key component for me.
Dane Geer: Because not only do I have a visual impairment, but I also
Dane Geer: have a reading disability, dyslexia, so…
Dane Geer: Being able to hear what's going on helps me tremendously.
David Sloan: So that's a… that's a great example of having almost multiple assistive technologies supporting different accessibility needs working together and in different combinations.
David Sloan: So, okay, so that's your setup, Dane. What about you, Isabel? What's your assistive technology setup?
Isabel Holdsworth: Oh, mine's much more simplistic. I'm totally blind, so I can't see a screen, which means I can buy a nice, cheap, small screen laptop.
Isabel Holdsworth: I use JAWS every day on my Windows computer.
Isabel Holdsworth: And how have I got it customized? Well, I don't, actually. I try and use it out of the box, apart from the speech is so fast that most people can't really understand it, because I have no patience.
Isabel Holdsworth: But I try and, use the out-of-the-box settings, because sometimes I'm testing websites from the perspective of, you know, it could just be any user, so I don't know what their customizations are going to be, so I try not to customize.
Isabel Holdsworth: I also use a screen reader on my TV.
Isabel Holdsworth: And one on my phone.
Isabel Holdsworth: And I really use the screen readers wherever I can find them. I do have a couple of Braille displays floating around, and I've got a…
Isabel Holdsworth: Little tiny Braille,
Isabel Holdsworth: Book reader and note-taker, which I use, especially if I'm on the train or I'm going out somewhere and need to take notes.
Isabel Holdsworth: But mostly JAWS is the one I would use the most, and my favorite JAWS feature would be the PictureSmart,
Isabel Holdsworth: thing, which I will go into as we carry on through this.
Isabel Holdsworth: webinar, I guess?
David Sloan: Yeah, I'll look forward to hearing more about how you're using PictureSmart, but I'm curious about the way, you know, you have different screen readers on different devices. What… how…
David Sloan: How similar are they, and what are the biggest differences between your… the screen reader, for…
David Sloan: your TV, for your phone, for your laptop.
Isabel Holdsworth: Well, the one on the TV has a limited vocabulary, and it's really just for helping me to find out what channel I'm on, and what the program is.
Isabel Holdsworth: And what time it's gonna start and end.
Isabel Holdsworth: The one on my phone. Well, it's an iPhone, and the screen reader comes built in, so…
Isabel Holdsworth: What you see is what you get, really, but… I think… On my computer.
Isabel Holdsworth: JAWS allows me to do more, you know? This sounds like a sales pitch, and it really isn't. You know, because of the…
Isabel Holdsworth: Man, JAWS is just a massive suite of tools bolted together, and I can do so much with it these days. And that alone improves web accessibility, but again, we'll probably get into that as we go.
David Sloan: Yeah, yeah.
David Sloan: You know, again, it's kind of helpful to get a sense of the… different…
David Sloan: screen readers are used for different purposes, and the different devices. Use them for different reasons, and some of them you're using for lots of different things, and some of them you're very specific.
David Sloan: activity in mind, like watching TV and, you know, figuring out what's on next.
Isabel Holdsworth: I think we have lots of talking… blind people tend to have lots of talking things around, like I've got a…
Isabel Holdsworth: little food thermometer, and a kitchen scale, and that sort of thing. And we have lots of things wired up to apps now. And, you know, we can get more mainstream stuff because we can read it with using apps and things.
David Sloan: Delays?
David Sloan: Shift, kind of, to talking more about
David Sloan: Web and software accessibility and usability, and progress, or…
David Sloan: or not, over recent years, so I'm really curious to get your thoughts, both of you, on
David Sloan: What the biggest improvements have been made, let's say, in the last, whatever, 5, 10,
David Sloan: 15 years. Maybe, you know, issues that you don't encounter anymore that you used to encounter regularly.
David Sloan: We'll start with you, Isabel, and then we'll shift over to get your perspective after, Dane.
Isabel Holdsworth: Well, you know, I reckon Web accessibility hasn't changed much over the past
Isabel Holdsworth: 5 years or so, I don't think. I think that there are things that are getting better, like, I think that devs are starting to understand the basics about headings and table structure and lists. You see a lot more…
Isabel Holdsworth: Headings and lists around.
Isabel Holdsworth: But I think that's, the counterpoint to that is there's a lot more custom.
Isabel Holdsworth: Elements. Like, for example, drop down.
Isabel Holdsworth: menus.
Isabel Holdsworth: they're customized a lot, and you don't… it really depends how much the developer knows about accessibility, or how much accessibility is built into the development framework that they're using. So it's… customized controls are a bit of a hit and miss affair, really.
Isabel Holdsworth: So, yeah, some aspects are better, some aren't so great, but I think it's… Really remained pretty…
Isabel Holdsworth: Static for me, over the past 5 years or so.
David Sloan: Would you say that's the case for all types of websites, or have some
David Sloan: Sort of websites for certain purposes have got better, and others have stayed the same, or… or is it… is that a kind of across-the-board observation?
Isabel Holdsworth: I think apart from one, every banking website that I've used over the past 3 or 4 years has been a lot more accessible than they were previously.
Isabel Holdsworth: So I think financial institutions are starting to take web accessibility more seriously.
David Sloan: That's really interesting, given that financial institutions are pretty heavily regulated, and there are obligations. They're probably especially aware of the cost of money, and fines, and risk, and hopefully the customer service opportunity to.
Isabel Holdsworth: Mmm.
David Sloan: Talk about accessibility, so… That's… that's… that's really interesting.
David Sloan: Dane, how about you? What, what…
David Sloan: What changes have you experienced over the years from a magnification or combo.
Dane Geer: I feel like a lot of the, newer webpages, some of it can be really busy.
Dane Geer: In terms of… of navigating around, there seems to be…
Dane Geer: a lot more complicated websites, I guess you could say.
Dane Geer: I think that the key is, though, is that, you know, with a good foundation.
Dane Geer: And saying, okay, we need to make this website accessible from the beginning.
Dane Geer: helps… helps, it keep it going. I know that a lot of times, whenever they…
Dane Geer: Say they update their website, and then maybe their drop-down menu's broke, or…
Dane Geer: You know, something gets changed like that,
Dane Geer: That's the hardest part, but I think that, honestly, we have came a long way.
Dane Geer: In terms of accessibility,
Dane Geer: The one thing I feel like we do need to… have worked on is the… the, CAPTCHA.
Dane Geer: element whenever you have to do a CAPTCHA. A lot of that's very difficult, especially if you're not using the audio portion, and you're trying to use the picture portion, where you have to choose. They say, oh, we'll find, you know, four pictures of a
Dane Geer: stoplight. Well, when you're visually impaired, and you're trying to look at that, and they try to make it look abstract, so it's really…
Dane Geer: Difficult for a lot of people.
Dane Geer: With that type of deal, but other than that, everything's, became, came a long way.
Dane Geer: In terms of accessibility.
David Sloan: sucks.
Dane Geer: Especially with, with the way…
Dane Geer: The websites are being designed now, it's just… it's a lot better, for sure.
David Sloan: That's encouraging to hear, and I'm definitely with you on CAPTCHA. You know, I… I'm, you know, still have…
David Sloan: pretty…
David Sloan: decent vision, and one of the things that CAPTCHA seems to intentionally do is to sort of distort what things look like, so it's harder to
David Sloan: Harder to figure out.
David Sloan: you know, where, you know, where is this motorcycle in all of these squares, or just one? So, you know, it's… it's almost making it… making it deliberately harder, and, so, so yeah, when you have a visual impairment to sort of factor into that, then…
David Sloan: That… It gets even harder to prove you're a human.
Isabel Holdsworth: Which is…
Isabel Holdsworth: Some of the CAPTCHA organizations are starting to think about this stuff, because I know Cloudflare has a…
Isabel Holdsworth: I, A scenario where if you can show that you're blind, they won't…
Isabel Holdsworth: ask you to fill out a CAPTCHA. They'll just store some sort of cookie on your machine, and you're not asked to fill out the CAPTCHA anymore.
David Sloan: So how is that… how does that…
David Sloan: Factor into, sort of, disclosing information that you might not want somebody to know about.
Isabel Holdsworth: You have the option, you know, you don't have to.
Isabel Holdsworth: I've chosen to, because it just makes… I'm lazy, it makes my life easier, so…
Isabel Holdsworth: But if I didn't want to, then I could still carry on doing the audio capture.
David Sloan: Right.
David Sloan: Yeah, and again, that's such a…
David Sloan: a big, broad question that stretches beyond accessibility is, like, how much are you willing… how much are you willing to disclose about yourself in order to make life easier? I feel like everyone has a… has a tipping point. It's like, no, you don't… I'm not sharing this information about me.
David Sloan: But this, yeah, I don't care, just make my life easy and let me get on with things.
Isabel Holdsworth: I think it's easier if you know who you're disclosing to.
Isabel Holdsworth: If… if, you know, there… sometimes you hear talk about screen readers, being able to access
Isabel Holdsworth: You know, information, or…
Isabel Holdsworth: Sorry, about computers being able to access it so they can fire up a screen reader, or website manufacturers being able to access it so they can deliver the website in a different way. I don't want that, because I don't know who I'm disclosing the information to, but that's a whole different story, actually. You could do a whole podcast on…
Isabel Holdsworth: Disclosure, by itself.
David Sloan: Yeah, and I think that sometimes, sort of, there's this well-meaning
David Sloan: attempt at, well, the more I know about you, the more I can design something that helps you.
David Sloan: And yet that creates this dilemma for people, like, do I tell you something about myself that others don't have to in order to be able to
David Sloan: Have the same experiences as other people, so…
David Sloan: it's like forcing people to make a trade-off, and that, again, that's where the, I guess, the argument for inclusive design comes in. Just do it right without having to rely on somebody
David Sloan: giving up information about themselves in order to adjust a design or a user experience.
David Sloan: What's your thoughts on that, Dane? Do you have… Kind of concerns about…
David Sloan: Disclosure in order to be able to
David Sloan: interact with software? Is that something that you've not…
David Sloan: Had to deal with so much.
Dane Geer: well.
Dane Geer: You know, like she… like Isabel said, you know, it's definitely depends on who you're sharing your information with.
Dane Geer: Yeah, I'm very cautious on…
Dane Geer: you know, what I want to share.
Dane Geer: You know, I'm not gonna go and give somebody my social security number, you know what I mean? So…
Dane Geer: You know, but a lot of times, some… well, a lot of times, the… some of the websites can be…
Dane Geer: More intrusive, and…
Dane Geer: wanting everything under the sun, and you're like, oh my goodness, what do you guys need? A, you know, a blood sample? You know, a DNA sample? But, you know, I feel like, you know, I mean,
Dane Geer: for instance, Apple's very secure. I like how secure they are, and how…
Dane Geer: They, you know, have a lot of our stuff secure on device.
Dane Geer: Which is really good.
Dane Geer: I think that more companies should follow that model, where it's more… I mean, I know it's more locked down, but it's…
Dane Geer: It's better for everyone, because then your information doesn't get stolen, and you don't get identity theft, and…
Dane Geer: And all that, I know I've seen where, actually my mother-in-law
Dane Geer: they had called me up one day, and they're like, oh, well, you know, we want… Norton wants us to install… install their product, and this and that, and…
Dane Geer: I'm like, okay, well, let me, let me click Assist in, let me remote in and see what's going on. Well, come to find out, it was actually a scam.
Isabel Holdsworth: Aww.
Dane Geer: And I had to go in and find out that there was a…
Dane Geer: Like, a separate type of browser installed.
Dane Geer: And it was, like, a tracker browser, and I had to get that all uninstalled, and…
Dane Geer: Clean up everything, but man, they ended up losing money, because they went and paid to put this software on, and it was fake.
Isabel Holdsworth: Aww.
Dane Geer: So, you know, you gotta be very careful with…
Dane Geer: Things will pop up and say, oh, well, there's a problem here, you got a virus, or you got something going on.
Dane Geer: Gotta be very, very careful.
Dane Geer: In that situation.
David Sloan: Yeah, I guess that's… That's an example of how, you know.
David Sloan: I started by asking, you know, what sort of accessibility barriers have gone away over the years, or what sort of user experience barriers have gone away, but the user experience itself has changed and become more complicated. Nothing's… nothing's staying the same, so…
David Sloan: The way that we interact, you know, the prevalence of
David Sloan: pop-ups and other notifications seems to have increased, and nowadays it's, you know, an AI assistant offering to help you do something. You know, I've just had to reinstall
David Sloan: or reset my laptop and reinstall all sorts of software, and every… every application I install now, it's like, here's the AI assistant, you know, I'll tell you stuff, and just get out of my way, just…
David Sloan: Yeah, so that… the user experience has got more complex, it feels like, over the last few years in general.
Isabel Holdsworth: I love AI.
David Sloan: So, okay, let's… we had to… we had to talk about it, because obviously it's… AI is something that's…
David Sloan: influencing accessibility. So, yeah, let's get your thoughts on how it's making
David Sloan: Doing stuff using tech easier or different, let's say.
Isabel Holdsworth: Well, I've started playing around with it, asking it to create, accessible HTML pages, and it's definitely not there yet.
Isabel Holdsworth: But it does make a reasonably good attempt, unless you want something a bit complicated.
Isabel Holdsworth: So… I think there's a lot more work to be done there, but…
Isabel Holdsworth: I'm really hoping that AI will help developers to increase accessibility, you know, on websites and things.
David Sloan: How confident are you?
David Sloan: Maybe that's, maybe that'.
Isabel Holdsworth: If you ask me one question, I'm an optimist.
David Sloan: Yeah, how long do you think it will take before you see a positive impact on accessibility?
Isabel Holdsworth: I don't think, it'll ever get accessibility completely right. I think that's a very,
Isabel Holdsworth: It's a thing that requires thought and human interaction and testing.
David Sloan: You also mentioned earlier, Isabel, Picture Smart AI, so that's…
David Sloan: that's a… kind of thinking about AI from an assistive technology perspective. You know, we've heard a lot about how
David Sloan: Assistive technology is kind of
David Sloan: Is already, or could become superpowered through harnessing
David Sloan: generative AI and other AI tools to
David Sloan: to make stuff more… content more accessible. Tell us more about how you're using PictureSmart AI and other related
David Sloan: AI services.
Isabel Holdsworth: Well, I started using PictureSmart.
Isabel Holdsworth: It was… when I started using it, it was in development, so I thought I'd be an early adopter and try it out.
Isabel Holdsworth: So, my mom… I think I mentioned this somewhere before, my mum got married when she was 78.
Isabel Holdsworth: And, I was at the wedding.
Isabel Holdsworth: And I started running some of the pictures of her wedding through PictureSmart, and learned a lot of stuff that I did not know while I was at the wedding. The color of people's dresses and the style of them,
Isabel Holdsworth: what the wedding cake looked like, and how the top table was set up. And I was sitting at the top table, and I missed a lot of this stuff, because I couldn't see it, and it was just, like, opening up a whole world.
Isabel Holdsworth: So I got a bit excited about that, and then,
Isabel Holdsworth: I tried it one time, and I came across a button on a website, and I didn't know what it did, so I asked Picturesmart to look at that, and it described the…
Isabel Holdsworth: icon on the button for me, so I knew,
Isabel Holdsworth: I was able to work out what the button could do, and I've just been using it ever since.
Isabel Holdsworth: PictureSmart and OCR together, just…
Isabel Holdsworth: You know, if I'm struggling with a screen, or even just if I want to know what the whole screen looks like.
Isabel Holdsworth: Because I like to kind of map things out in my mind.
Isabel Holdsworth: I use it for that. I just use it for fun sometimes.
David Sloan: I guess if it's…
David Sloan: if you're using it for fun, there's a positive experience in there. You know, you don't use something for fun if it's an unpleasant experience, so that means it's doing something, so…
Dane Geer: That's kind of funny.
David Sloan: exciting. Dane, are you using PictureSmart AI, or are there other AI tools that you're using.
Dane Geer: Oh, I… I use a lot of, I like Gemini a lot. I also like, ChatGPT.
Dane Geer: But in terms of, AI, I… I like being able to, like, at one point, I had this alarm clock, and I didn't know
Dane Geer: How to reset the time, how to fix the time on it.
Dane Geer: Well, I took a picture of it with, with,
Dane Geer: with, Gemini, and she actually told me, oh, we'll hit this button here, and you'll be able to reset it. So, in terms like that, that really is very helpful, how AI is able to
Dane Geer: Provide information.
Dane Geer: And actually teaches you things that you might not know.
Dane Geer: So, in that sense, it's really, really cool.
Dane Geer: You know, there's always good, you know, people always have good and bad things to say about AI, you know, people are worried about, you know.
Dane Geer: Losing their jobs, or… or whatnot, but there's… there's no way, because you always have to have that human interaction.
Dane Geer: It makes life a lot better when you actually have someone, you know, there to talk to, personable, and…
Dane Geer: you know, it's better. But yeah, AI's gone a lot… came a long way, and…
Dane Geer: It'll keep growing, that's for sure. But, I like it. I like it a lot. It's really cool.
Isabel Holdsworth: I was testing a website one time.
Isabel Holdsworth: And I asked ChatGPT what the color of a… I think it was a button or some sort of control on the website. I needed to know what color it was. And it said… it kept saying, I can't give you an exact color scheme.
Isabel Holdsworth: And I wrote, a prompt that said, look, I'm blind, I'm here by myself, I've got no one else to help me with this, please, can you help? And it actually did.
Isabel Holdsworth: And I was very impressed with that.
Isabel Holdsworth: And…
David Sloan: For that one, did you… were you able to verify what…
Isabel Holdsworth: Yes? Oh, yeah, no, you can't trust the chatbot for that kind of stuff. But it helped me, you know, get an idea if it was going to pass or fail.
Isabel Holdsworth: And then I was able to verify with a colleague. So, yeah, it's useful that way.
Isabel Holdsworth: And also, I like pushing the boundaries and seeing if I can get it to do stuff.
Isabel Holdsworth: That it wouldn't normally do.
David Sloan: Well, I think pushing boundaries is always…
David Sloan: It's always worthwhile when you think about generative AI as a kind of.
Isabel Holdsworth: Yeah.
David Sloan: Approximating to the mean. You know, pushing it into the
David Sloan: The limits help… helps it kind of realize that, yeah, There's a… there's…
David Sloan: Everything's more different than it might assume, in terms of predictability.
Isabel Holdsworth: I just wanted to see how much pseudo-empathy I could get out of it, really.
David Sloan: The thing that, you know, just listening to your examples over the last few minutes, the thing that's kind of really struck home is how AI is becoming
David Sloan: more useful as a kind of initial technical support advisor. You know, giving you advice and overcoming things, you know, whether it's an accessibility challenge or more general
David Sloan: Sort of give me some advice on… on… on,
David Sloan: recovering from this situation, or help me do this task. And, you know, that kind of efficiency improvement. Again, putting, you know, being aware of that it may not be perfect, it may give you the wrong advice, but it seems like
David Sloan: as an assistive technology in the broadest sense, it's… it's really starting to… to make a difference. And… and then also the…
David Sloan: The way that you can interact with your tool of choice
David Sloan: means that there's… there's not… You're not having accessibility issues
David Sloan: trying to instruct it and get… get the feedback that's needed. So, again, that's… that's helping
David Sloan: make tasks easier to perform.
Isabel Holdsworth: I think right now, right now, AI is quite passive. I'm looking forward to a time when I can get it to do stuff, like, yesterday, a message popped up on my browser, and
Isabel Holdsworth: it rendered it useless to me, because I couldn't get to the message to dismiss it, and I couldn't use the browser until I dismissed the message. Now, if I'd have been able to tell my AI bot to go off and tell me what that message was and click the appropriate button, that would have been amazing.
Isabel Holdsworth: So, I guess I'm looking forward to a time when JAWS is harnessing AI in that way.
Isabel Holdsworth: They're gonna be unstoppable.
David Sloan: That's not far off.
David Sloan: You know, some people will say we're here already, you know, being more…
David Sloan: Sort of creative and harnessing agents to do stuff, but…
David Sloan: Seems like we're… Pretty close to that, kind of.
David Sloan: Situation, so…
Isabel Holdsworth: That'd be quite an exciting day.
David Sloan: from us.
Dane Geer: Definitely.
David Sloan: Dane, from a technical support perspective, do you see how your role and the things you do are changing through
David Sloan: use of AI, especially if you're supporting other people using assistive technology.
Dane Geer: Well, yes, I feel like the… especially with our, the Vispero Companion, and… And things like that.
Dane Geer: I do use that a lot. I use ChatGPT a lot, because there's so many different scenarios and different keyboard commands, there's no way anybody
Dane Geer: You know, can remember them all. So…
Dane Geer: Those are tools I do use every day to be able to, provide
Dane Geer: the best technical support for all my customers that I can.
Dane Geer: And get the correct answers for them as quickly as possible.
Dane Geer: So, I know that a lot of times, you know, AI, you gotta be careful, because sometimes it might give you the wrong answer, but…
Dane Geer: It's a good way to start, and it's a good way to get the information that you need to be able to help the customers quickly and efficiently.
David Sloan: Yeah, for sure.
David Sloan: Sweet.
David Sloan: talked a lot, you know, we talked about AI, we talked a lot about,
David Sloan: web applications and the sort of online user experience. What about… mobile…
David Sloan: accessibility, native apps. Do you… do you see a kind of similar…
David Sloan: I don't want to say stagnation, but sort of…
David Sloan: Has the progress towards improved accessibility and user experience, from your perspective, been
David Sloan: how does the mobile experience compare to the sort of browser-based or the desktop experience, in your views? Dane, I'll ask you that first.
Dane Geer: I've… well, I use iPhone. I mean, I've,
Dane Geer: I've used iPhone, I've used Android, but I feel like…
Dane Geer: that the accessibility for the iPhone has gotten a lot better.
Dane Geer: One thing I wish they would work on more is the dictation. The dictation's kind of…
Dane Geer: When you're dictating, because I dictate a lot for text messaging and all that.
Dane Geer: Because, there again, I have the reading disabilities that I have.
Dane Geer: But I do feel like it's came a long way from… from the beginning. I… I feel like,
Dane Geer: it's really cool that they're, you know, implementing AI into certain things, like, I can take a picture of something, but I don't know, like, what type of animal it is, or…
Dane Geer: And be able to…
Dane Geer: send that picture through ChatGPT, and it'd give me an answer of what type of animal it is, or what plant it is.
Dane Geer: And, you know, different things like that, because I have a lot of animals, I have…
Dane Geer: a pig, a mini pig, and I have goats and all that. So, like, certain foods, I'll… I'll, you know, put it through ChatGPT or Gemini and say, okay, is this safe to give to my animal?
Dane Geer: You know, different things like that. So I feel like, yes,
Dane Geer: the iPhone has came a long way, the cameras are a lot better, I use the…
Dane Geer: the magnification on my iPhone a lot, to be able to zoom in on things, to be able to see.
Dane Geer: You know, text and things like that, so…
Dane Geer: Yes, I feel like, it's definitely going the right direction, for sure.
David Sloan: And again, it sounds like it's the phone itself that's being an assistive technology, as opposed to the apps on it.
Isabel Holdsworth: Yes, that's true.
David Sloan: That's amazing. Isabel, yeah, seriously.
Isabel Holdsworth: This is what I was gonna say, the phones are getting better, but I'm not sure that the apps are. I think apps are lagging behind a little bit.
Isabel Holdsworth: As far as accessibility goes.
Isabel Holdsworth: Last night, I was trying to check in, for an airline flight, and
Isabel Holdsworth: I had to get my partner to do it, because the app…
Isabel Holdsworth: And the website, actually, are both so inaccessible that I cannot use either of them.
Isabel Holdsworth: And especially those little…
Isabel Holdsworth: There's, okay, so if I need to add my passport, there's a place where I have to put my passport into a frame.
Isabel Holdsworth: hold the camera above the passport and fit it into this square frame, and I… it's something I just can't do.
Isabel Holdsworth: But I was doing it… I was doing it for…
David Sloan: Give you feedback on positioning something to take a picture.
Isabel Holdsworth: It doesn't give me any feedback.
David Sloan: Right. Ok, okay.
Isabel Holdsworth: No, I was doing it for a bank today, actually, and it did. It gave me feedback. It said I had to move… move the phone slowly, and then it made a blink when I got it right, so that was amazing.
Isabel Holdsworth: Again, another financial institution, so that was good.
David Sloan: Another…
Isabel Holdsworth: Yeah, no.
David Sloan: Because banks are regulated, so are… so is the airline industry, and yet…
Isabel Holdsworth: Unless it's a bunch of air. They don't care.
David Sloan: Yeah.
Isabel Holdsworth: We've been on at them for years and years, and they just… they do not care.
David Sloan: Oh, that's frustrating.
Isabel Holdsworth: Yeah, so…
David Sloan: But in general, your… Your experience is that the phone is getting more useful.
David Sloan: Even if the apps on the… on it aren't.
Isabel Holdsworth: Yeah… But again, you know, I can… I can take a picture of the…
Isabel Holdsworth: screen of my app and ask a chatbot to describe it for me, but I can't ask it to tap something.
Isabel Holdsworth: So I'm still a bit…
Isabel Holdsworth: You know, if I can't do something, I can maybe understand a bit better why I can't do it, but I still can't do it.
David Sloan: Yeah, that's… that's kind of frustrating. You have more detail of what the problem is, but you.
Isabel Holdsworth: Can't wait to.
David Sloan: to solve the problem.
Isabel Holdsworth: Yes. Depending.
David Sloan: Incidentally, yeah.
Isabel Holdsworth: Yes, but at least I can describe in a better way to somebody who I'm asking to help me fix it, but I still want to do it on my own, I don't want to ask anyone else to do it for me.
David Sloan: Why not? You know, it's an independent operation, it's…
David Sloan: Something that should be… should be achievable, given.
Isabel Holdsworth: Yeah.
David Sloan: All we know about accessibility.
Dane Geer: So that's probably…
David Sloan: Yeah, it's probably a good way to sort of turn as we sort of start to wrap up the conversation.
David Sloan: And I'm gonna put each of you on the spot here, and ask you.
David Sloan: What's the one thing you'd want Digital tech designers, developers.
David Sloan: to know to make your experience as an assistive technology user easier. Dane, well. Can I ask you first?
Dane Geer: Well, I feel like, basically.
Dane Geer: it's… the way I think about it is, like, when you're building a house, you've got to have certain components
Dane Geer: To make that house strong.
Dane Geer: You know, you gotta have your plumbing, you gotta have your electricity, you gotta have all these things in place.
Dane Geer: I feel like if they take and say, okay, when I first start building this website, if it's… the foundation has accessibility in mind.
Dane Geer: Where it's built in, it would make things a lot better, because as you go along, and they go to update the website, you know, and add certain things.
Dane Geer: They'll have that accessibility component already there to where they can
Dane Geer: Quickly adjust things in accordance to
Dane Geer: Make it more accessible for individuals that are blind or visually impaired.
David Sloan: Yeah, well said. And with a strong foundation, it's less likely that what you build on top of it is going to fall down after the first gust of wind or whatever else that comes along.
Dane Geer: exactly.
David Sloan: What about you, Isabel? What's your one piece of advice to give to designers and developers?
Isabel Holdsworth: And I only have one?
David Sloan: I have… I have to… I have to limit it, right?
Isabel Holdsworth: criminal?
David Sloan: Share one, and if there's an urgent second one, maybe we'll let you sneak that in as well.
Isabel Holdsworth: I'm…
Isabel Holdsworth: learn about accessibility. You think it's boring, and you think it's, obstructive, but it really isn't, and once you get… get the bug, you'll not be able to let it go.
Isabel Holdsworth: You'll love it.
Isabel Holdsworth: And the difference that you're making to people, it'll really be worth your while. And don't ever come up with any ideas that are, like, flash.
Isabel Holdsworth: Flash is the one thing that I do not miss.
Isabel Holdsworth: I'm so glad to be rid of it.
Isabel Holdsworth: So, yeah.
David Sloan: That's… yeah, I haven't…
Isabel Holdsworth: I sneaked it in.
David Sloan: Yes.
David Sloan: Oh, I'd forgotten about Flash.
Isabel Holdsworth: Oh my goodness.
David Sloan: Websites, wow, yeah.
Isabel Holdsworth: That was awful. I used to work embedding Flash into websites, and I hate it.
David Sloan: Wow.
David Sloan: Yeah, and I think the point that you made there at the end, that this work is fun, and it's…
David Sloan: It's stimulating, it's creative, and it's rewarding.
David Sloan: And… Yeah, we talk about the laws and the regulations and the standards that you've got to follow.
David Sloan: But ultimately, it's… When you turn it around and say, we're making better products for more people, then…
David Sloan: It just… it just changes the tone of the conversation and makes it something that I've
David Sloan: I think is… is… is more… more appealing, and something that sounds like…
David Sloan: It's a… it's a worthwhile endeavor. Why would you not want to do that?
Isabel Holdsworth: People are making such a big difference to people who already have to work harder.
Isabel Holdsworth: To get the same… I haven't put that right, sorry.
David Sloan: Yeah, no, I get what you're saying, and… People who are already You know, finding, finding.
David Sloan: Ways and being creative, but anything that anyone else can do to make that easier and reduce the effort.
Isabel Holdsworth: Absolutely.
David Sloan: That's well worth it.
Dane Geer: Yes, it's all about being independent, being able to be independent.
Dane Geer: And not have to…
Dane Geer: depend on anybody else, you can just get things done. It makes you feel good, so… It's definitely important.
David Sloan: Yep.
Isabel Holdsworth: You know, if you add a pretty design to your website, that's nice, and people think, oh, that's nice, or maybe not. But if you add structure to your website, suddenly I can do something on it that I couldn't do before, and that's where the big difference comes in.
David Sloan: Yep, the enabling factor.
Isabel Holdsworth: Yeah.
David Sloan: Well, that's a great… a great summary, and thank you both so much for sharing your experiences as assistive technology users, and your advice, and hopefully that's advice that digital product teams and content creators
David Sloan: Can follow to make their user experience better for more people.
David Sloan: So, now you know the state of accessibility, and David Sloan, thanking Isabel Holdsworth and Dane Geer, reminding you that the state of accessibility is always changing, so please help us affect change.