WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.590 --> 00:00:19.980 David Sloan: Welcome to the State of Accessibility podcast from Vispero. I'm David Sloan, Chief Accessibility Officer for Vispero, and each month I'm joined by a guest or two to discuss a topic of interest and relevance to the practice and profession of digital accessibility. 2 00:00:20.540 --> 00:00:31.960 David Sloan: So, this is episode 19, and for this episode, for May 2026, we're marking the 15th Annual Global Accessibility Awareness Day, or GAAD for short. 3 00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:35.589 David Sloan: Which takes place on May 21st. 4 00:00:35.900 --> 00:00:50.380 David Sloan: GAAD is now well established in the calendars of accessibility… the accessibility community as a time to highlight the value of accessibility efforts, to share knowledge, and to celebrate the progress that we've made. 5 00:00:50.680 --> 00:01:05.469 David Sloan: Now, Vispero's involved in a range of GAAD activities this year, but for the podcast, we wanted to focus on exploring their experience from the perspective of people who use assistive technology daily. 6 00:01:05.870 --> 00:01:15.510 David Sloan: We have data from accessibility surveys, such as this year's WebAIM Million survey, an automated accessibility scan of a million homepages. 7 00:01:15.690 --> 00:01:35.400 David Sloan: And the data suggests that things aren't getting better at the rate we'd want, but that's data from automated scans. What about the user's perspective? What's got better? Where do issues still remain? And where should we prioritize our design, development, advocacy efforts? 8 00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:53.519 David Sloan: So, joining me for this podcast discussion are two people whose perspectives I'm really keen to learn more about. My Vispero coworkers, Isabel Holdsworth, Assistive Technology Engineer, and Dane Geer, Technical Support Specialist. So, welcome to the podcast, Isabel and Dane. 9 00:01:54.210 --> 00:01:55.270 Isabel Holdsworth: Hello. 10 00:01:55.270 --> 00:01:56.910 Dane Geer: Thank you. Hello! 11 00:01:57.590 --> 00:02:15.230 David Sloan: So, let's start off by talking about your assistive technology setup. What do you use, and what sort of customization… customizations do you apply to your assistive technology? And I'll ask you, Dane, first, to share your setup. 12 00:02:15.880 --> 00:02:21.839 Dane Geer: Yeah, so I use Fusion as my primary assistive technology software. 13 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:39.860 Dane Geer: I use a 34-inch widescreen monitor, with a… I really like the gaming keyboards, with the way they type. It's really nice. I always use the, Windows dark mode, because I like the black background with… 14 00:02:39.970 --> 00:02:51.280 Dane Geer: white writing, And, basically, using… using JAWS, you know, in conjunction with Fusion. 15 00:02:52.220 --> 00:02:56.110 Dane Geer: It helps me be able to perform my job, and 16 00:02:56.280 --> 00:02:59.709 Dane Geer: Remote into people's computers and get them all fixed up. 17 00:03:00.570 --> 00:03:02.600 Dane Geer: Basically, that's my setup. 18 00:03:03.430 --> 00:03:08.840 David Sloan: So you're… you're including an aspect of screen magnification there as well, is that right? 19 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:15.890 Dane Geer: Yes, I usually run around 6 times magnification, depending on 20 00:03:16.160 --> 00:03:27.669 Dane Geer: the situation. Sometimes I have to move it up higher due to the remote aspect of remoting into individuals' computers and adjusting their settings. 21 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:32.409 David Sloan: Cool. And when… when would you use JAWS? You know, what… 22 00:03:32.920 --> 00:03:35.689 David Sloan: situation. Is that always running, or is it only at certain times? 23 00:03:35.690 --> 00:03:36.579 Dane Geer: That's this… 24 00:03:36.720 --> 00:03:45.160 Dane Geer: It's always running, sometimes I'll put on speech on demand if I don't need speech at the moment, but it is always running through Fusion. 25 00:03:45.660 --> 00:03:50.009 Dane Geer: But it's a very key, a very key component for me. 26 00:03:50.210 --> 00:03:53.530 Dane Geer: Because not only do I have a visual impairment, but I also 27 00:03:54.020 --> 00:03:58.090 Dane Geer: have a reading disability, dyslexia, so… 28 00:03:58.730 --> 00:04:02.589 Dane Geer: Being able to hear what's going on helps me tremendously. 29 00:04:03.550 --> 00:04:14.179 David Sloan: So that's a… that's a great example of having almost multiple assistive technologies supporting different accessibility needs working together and in different combinations. 30 00:04:17.149 --> 00:04:24.049 David Sloan: So, okay, so that's your setup, Dane. What about you, Isabel? What's your assistive technology setup? 31 00:04:24.530 --> 00:04:32.890 Isabel Holdsworth: Oh, mine's much more simplistic. I'm totally blind, so I can't see a screen, which means I can buy a nice, cheap, small screen laptop. 32 00:04:33.410 --> 00:04:37.470 Isabel Holdsworth: I use JAWS every day on my Windows computer. 33 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:50.099 Isabel Holdsworth: And how have I got it customized? Well, I don't, actually. I try and use it out of the box, apart from the speech is so fast that most people can't really understand it, because I have no patience. 34 00:04:50.420 --> 00:05:05.890 Isabel Holdsworth: But I try and, use the out-of-the-box settings, because sometimes I'm testing websites from the perspective of, you know, it could just be any user, so I don't know what their customizations are going to be, so I try not to customize. 35 00:05:06.210 --> 00:05:10.320 Isabel Holdsworth: I also use a screen reader on my TV. 36 00:05:10.460 --> 00:05:12.469 Isabel Holdsworth: And one on my phone. 37 00:05:12.960 --> 00:05:21.300 Isabel Holdsworth: And I really use the screen readers wherever I can find them. I do have a couple of Braille displays floating around, and I've got a… 38 00:05:21.510 --> 00:05:23.720 Isabel Holdsworth: Little tiny Braille, 39 00:05:24.070 --> 00:05:30.879 Isabel Holdsworth: Book reader and note-taker, which I use, especially if I'm on the train or I'm going out somewhere and need to take notes. 40 00:05:30.980 --> 00:05:38.119 Isabel Holdsworth: But mostly JAWS is the one I would use the most, and my favorite JAWS feature would be the PictureSmart, 41 00:05:38.420 --> 00:05:42.820 Isabel Holdsworth: thing, which I will go into as we carry on through this. 42 00:05:42.970 --> 00:05:44.569 Isabel Holdsworth: webinar, I guess? 43 00:05:44.780 --> 00:05:54.560 David Sloan: Yeah, I'll look forward to hearing more about how you're using PictureSmart, but I'm curious about the way, you know, you have different screen readers on different devices. What… how… 44 00:05:54.720 --> 00:06:01.589 David Sloan: How similar are they, and what are the biggest differences between your… the screen reader, for… 45 00:06:01.840 --> 00:06:04.990 David Sloan: your TV, for your phone, for your laptop. 46 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:13.130 Isabel Holdsworth: Well, the one on the TV has a limited vocabulary, and it's really just for helping me to find out what channel I'm on, and what the program is. 47 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:15.810 Isabel Holdsworth: And what time it's gonna start and end. 48 00:06:16.010 --> 00:06:21.759 Isabel Holdsworth: The one on my phone. Well, it's an iPhone, and the screen reader comes built in, so… 49 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:29.890 Isabel Holdsworth: What you see is what you get, really, but… I think… On my computer. 50 00:06:32.180 --> 00:06:42.030 Isabel Holdsworth: JAWS allows me to do more, you know? This sounds like a sales pitch, and it really isn't. You know, because of the… 51 00:06:43.030 --> 00:06:54.949 Isabel Holdsworth: Man, JAWS is just a massive suite of tools bolted together, and I can do so much with it these days. And that alone improves web accessibility, but again, we'll probably get into that as we go. 52 00:06:54.950 --> 00:06:56.260 David Sloan: Yeah, yeah. 53 00:06:56.780 --> 00:07:01.290 David Sloan: You know, again, it's kind of helpful to get a sense of the… different… 54 00:07:02.430 --> 00:07:14.910 David Sloan: screen readers are used for different purposes, and the different devices. Use them for different reasons, and some of them you're using for lots of different things, and some of them you're very specific. 55 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:20.770 David Sloan: activity in mind, like watching TV and, you know, figuring out what's on next. 56 00:07:20.770 --> 00:07:25.869 Isabel Holdsworth: I think we have lots of talking… blind people tend to have lots of talking things around, like I've got a… 57 00:07:26.780 --> 00:07:38.839 Isabel Holdsworth: little food thermometer, and a kitchen scale, and that sort of thing. And we have lots of things wired up to apps now. And, you know, we can get more mainstream stuff because we can read it with using apps and things. 58 00:07:41.220 --> 00:07:41.930 David Sloan: Delays? 59 00:07:42.450 --> 00:07:44.879 David Sloan: Shift, kind of, to talking more about 60 00:07:45.860 --> 00:07:51.540 David Sloan: Web and software accessibility and usability, and progress, or… 61 00:07:51.700 --> 00:07:57.850 David Sloan: or not, over recent years, so I'm really curious to get your thoughts, both of you, on 62 00:07:58.110 --> 00:08:03.400 David Sloan: What the biggest improvements have been made, let's say, in the last, whatever, 5, 10, 63 00:08:03.910 --> 00:08:11.519 David Sloan: 15 years. Maybe, you know, issues that you don't encounter anymore that you used to encounter regularly. 64 00:08:11.650 --> 00:08:15.900 David Sloan: We'll start with you, Isabel, and then we'll shift over to get your perspective after, Dane. 65 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:23.989 Isabel Holdsworth: Well, you know, I reckon Web accessibility hasn't changed much over the past 66 00:08:24.610 --> 00:08:36.880 Isabel Holdsworth: 5 years or so, I don't think. I think that there are things that are getting better, like, I think that devs are starting to understand the basics about headings and table structure and lists. You see a lot more… 67 00:08:37.299 --> 00:08:39.469 Isabel Holdsworth: Headings and lists around. 68 00:08:40.140 --> 00:08:46.010 Isabel Holdsworth: But I think that's, the counterpoint to that is there's a lot more custom. 69 00:08:46.670 --> 00:08:52.710 Isabel Holdsworth: Elements. Like, for example, drop down. 70 00:08:53.940 --> 00:08:55.380 Isabel Holdsworth: menus. 71 00:08:55.530 --> 00:09:11.230 Isabel Holdsworth: they're customized a lot, and you don't… it really depends how much the developer knows about accessibility, or how much accessibility is built into the development framework that they're using. So it's… customized controls are a bit of a hit and miss affair, really. 72 00:09:11.470 --> 00:09:18.590 Isabel Holdsworth: So, yeah, some aspects are better, some aren't so great, but I think it's… Really remained pretty… 73 00:09:20.190 --> 00:09:23.300 Isabel Holdsworth: Static for me, over the past 5 years or so. 74 00:09:24.300 --> 00:09:28.580 David Sloan: Would you say that's the case for all types of websites, or have some 75 00:09:29.080 --> 00:09:37.730 David Sloan: Sort of websites for certain purposes have got better, and others have stayed the same, or… or is it… is that a kind of across-the-board observation? 76 00:09:38.170 --> 00:09:46.650 Isabel Holdsworth: I think apart from one, every banking website that I've used over the past 3 or 4 years has been a lot more accessible than they were previously. 77 00:09:46.980 --> 00:09:51.739 Isabel Holdsworth: So I think financial institutions are starting to take web accessibility more seriously. 78 00:09:52.740 --> 00:10:09.550 David Sloan: That's really interesting, given that financial institutions are pretty heavily regulated, and there are obligations. They're probably especially aware of the cost of money, and fines, and risk, and hopefully the customer service opportunity to. 79 00:10:09.550 --> 00:10:10.080 Isabel Holdsworth: Mmm. 80 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:14.650 David Sloan: Talk about accessibility, so… That's… that's… that's really interesting. 81 00:10:14.970 --> 00:10:16.880 David Sloan: Dane, how about you? What, what… 82 00:10:17.100 --> 00:10:22.710 David Sloan: What changes have you experienced over the years from a magnification or combo. 83 00:10:23.310 --> 00:10:29.340 Dane Geer: I feel like a lot of the, newer webpages, some of it can be really busy. 84 00:10:30.590 --> 00:10:35.229 Dane Geer: In terms of… of navigating around, there seems to be… 85 00:10:35.410 --> 00:10:39.580 Dane Geer: a lot more complicated websites, I guess you could say. 86 00:10:41.110 --> 00:10:46.169 Dane Geer: I think that the key is, though, is that, you know, with a good foundation. 87 00:10:46.380 --> 00:10:50.549 Dane Geer: And saying, okay, we need to make this website accessible from the beginning. 88 00:10:50.890 --> 00:10:57.210 Dane Geer: helps… helps, it keep it going. I know that a lot of times, whenever they… 89 00:10:57.460 --> 00:11:03.470 Dane Geer: Say they update their website, and then maybe their drop-down menu's broke, or… 90 00:11:03.690 --> 00:11:06.620 Dane Geer: You know, something gets changed like that, 91 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:12.709 Dane Geer: That's the hardest part, but I think that, honestly, we have came a long way. 92 00:11:13.020 --> 00:11:16.160 Dane Geer: In terms of accessibility, 93 00:11:17.020 --> 00:11:23.860 Dane Geer: The one thing I feel like we do need to… have worked on is the… the, CAPTCHA. 94 00:11:24.620 --> 00:11:40.689 Dane Geer: element whenever you have to do a CAPTCHA. A lot of that's very difficult, especially if you're not using the audio portion, and you're trying to use the picture portion, where you have to choose. They say, oh, we'll find, you know, four pictures of a 95 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:49.339 Dane Geer: stoplight. Well, when you're visually impaired, and you're trying to look at that, and they try to make it look abstract, so it's really… 96 00:11:49.530 --> 00:11:51.409 Dane Geer: Difficult for a lot of people. 97 00:11:51.690 --> 00:11:59.080 Dane Geer: With that type of deal, but other than that, everything's, became, came a long way. 98 00:11:59.230 --> 00:12:01.230 Dane Geer: In terms of accessibility. 99 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:02.480 David Sloan: sucks. 100 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:04.859 Dane Geer: Especially with, with the way… 101 00:12:05.280 --> 00:12:09.630 Dane Geer: The websites are being designed now, it's just… it's a lot better, for sure. 102 00:12:10.530 --> 00:12:17.620 David Sloan: That's encouraging to hear, and I'm definitely with you on CAPTCHA. You know, I… I'm, you know, still have… 103 00:12:17.740 --> 00:12:18.530 David Sloan: pretty… 104 00:12:19.010 --> 00:12:28.219 David Sloan: decent vision, and one of the things that CAPTCHA seems to intentionally do is to sort of distort what things look like, so it's harder to 105 00:12:28.630 --> 00:12:30.110 David Sloan: Harder to figure out. 106 00:12:30.220 --> 00:12:46.820 David Sloan: you know, where, you know, where is this motorcycle in all of these squares, or just one? So, you know, it's… it's almost making it… making it deliberately harder, and, so, so yeah, when you have a visual impairment to sort of factor into that, then… 107 00:12:47.050 --> 00:12:52.139 David Sloan: That… It gets even harder to prove you're a human. 108 00:12:52.660 --> 00:12:53.750 Isabel Holdsworth: Which is… 109 00:12:54.820 --> 00:12:59.949 Isabel Holdsworth: Some of the CAPTCHA organizations are starting to think about this stuff, because I know Cloudflare has a… 110 00:13:00.340 --> 00:13:05.780 Isabel Holdsworth: I, A scenario where if you can show that you're blind, they won't… 111 00:13:06.140 --> 00:13:13.940 Isabel Holdsworth: ask you to fill out a CAPTCHA. They'll just store some sort of cookie on your machine, and you're not asked to fill out the CAPTCHA anymore. 112 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:16.929 David Sloan: So how is that… how does that… 113 00:13:17.270 --> 00:13:22.609 David Sloan: Factor into, sort of, disclosing information that you might not want somebody to know about. 114 00:13:22.610 --> 00:13:25.749 Isabel Holdsworth: You have the option, you know, you don't have to. 115 00:13:25.950 --> 00:13:30.470 Isabel Holdsworth: I've chosen to, because it just makes… I'm lazy, it makes my life easier, so… 116 00:13:30.680 --> 00:13:35.700 Isabel Holdsworth: But if I didn't want to, then I could still carry on doing the audio capture. 117 00:13:35.980 --> 00:13:36.670 David Sloan: Right. 118 00:13:37.370 --> 00:13:39.999 David Sloan: Yeah, and again, that's such a… 119 00:13:40.450 --> 00:13:56.340 David Sloan: a big, broad question that stretches beyond accessibility is, like, how much are you willing… how much are you willing to disclose about yourself in order to make life easier? I feel like everyone has a… has a tipping point. It's like, no, you don't… I'm not sharing this information about me. 120 00:13:56.770 --> 00:14:01.869 David Sloan: But this, yeah, I don't care, just make my life easy and let me get on with things. 121 00:14:02.290 --> 00:14:04.860 Isabel Holdsworth: I think it's easier if you know who you're disclosing to. 122 00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:11.590 Isabel Holdsworth: If… if, you know, there… sometimes you hear talk about screen readers, being able to access 123 00:14:12.920 --> 00:14:14.820 Isabel Holdsworth: You know, information, or… 124 00:14:16.640 --> 00:14:34.839 Isabel Holdsworth: Sorry, about computers being able to access it so they can fire up a screen reader, or website manufacturers being able to access it so they can deliver the website in a different way. I don't want that, because I don't know who I'm disclosing the information to, but that's a whole different story, actually. You could do a whole podcast on… 125 00:14:35.310 --> 00:14:37.450 Isabel Holdsworth: Disclosure, by itself. 126 00:14:37.920 --> 00:14:43.050 David Sloan: Yeah, and I think that sometimes, sort of, there's this well-meaning 127 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:48.320 David Sloan: attempt at, well, the more I know about you, the more I can design something that helps you. 128 00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:59.049 David Sloan: And yet that creates this dilemma for people, like, do I tell you something about myself that others don't have to in order to be able to 129 00:14:59.390 --> 00:15:02.770 David Sloan: Have the same experiences as other people, so… 130 00:15:03.230 --> 00:15:14.860 David Sloan: it's like forcing people to make a trade-off, and that, again, that's where the, I guess, the argument for inclusive design comes in. Just do it right without having to rely on somebody 131 00:15:15.040 --> 00:15:20.109 David Sloan: giving up information about themselves in order to adjust a design or a user experience. 132 00:15:22.870 --> 00:15:27.410 David Sloan: What's your thoughts on that, Dane? Do you have… Kind of concerns about… 133 00:15:28.140 --> 00:15:30.839 David Sloan: Disclosure in order to be able to 134 00:15:31.100 --> 00:15:33.780 David Sloan: interact with software? Is that something that you've not… 135 00:15:34.300 --> 00:15:35.550 David Sloan: Had to deal with so much. 136 00:15:35.550 --> 00:15:36.490 Dane Geer: well. 137 00:15:36.640 --> 00:15:44.970 Dane Geer: You know, like she… like Isabel said, you know, it's definitely depends on who you're sharing your information with. 138 00:15:45.500 --> 00:15:47.720 Dane Geer: Yeah, I'm very cautious on… 139 00:15:47.880 --> 00:15:50.070 Dane Geer: you know, what I want to share. 140 00:15:50.330 --> 00:15:55.199 Dane Geer: You know, I'm not gonna go and give somebody my social security number, you know what I mean? So… 141 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:02.169 Dane Geer: You know, but a lot of times, some… well, a lot of times, the… some of the websites can be… 142 00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:05.339 Dane Geer: More intrusive, and… 143 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:17.709 Dane Geer: wanting everything under the sun, and you're like, oh my goodness, what do you guys need? A, you know, a blood sample? You know, a DNA sample? But, you know, I feel like, you know, I mean, 144 00:16:18.280 --> 00:16:23.570 Dane Geer: for instance, Apple's very secure. I like how secure they are, and how… 145 00:16:24.050 --> 00:16:29.379 Dane Geer: They, you know, have a lot of our stuff secure on device. 146 00:16:29.710 --> 00:16:31.929 Dane Geer: Which is really good. 147 00:16:32.180 --> 00:16:39.420 Dane Geer: I think that more companies should follow that model, where it's more… I mean, I know it's more locked down, but it's… 148 00:16:39.610 --> 00:16:46.929 Dane Geer: It's better for everyone, because then your information doesn't get stolen, and you don't get identity theft, and… 149 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:53.900 Dane Geer: And all that, I know I've seen where, actually my mother-in-law 150 00:16:54.310 --> 00:17:03.220 Dane Geer: they had called me up one day, and they're like, oh, well, you know, we want… Norton wants us to install… install their product, and this and that, and… 151 00:17:03.560 --> 00:17:11.670 Dane Geer: I'm like, okay, well, let me, let me click Assist in, let me remote in and see what's going on. Well, come to find out, it was actually a scam. 152 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:12.380 Isabel Holdsworth: Aww. 153 00:17:12.380 --> 00:17:15.479 Dane Geer: And I had to go in and find out that there was a… 154 00:17:15.800 --> 00:17:18.689 Dane Geer: Like, a separate type of browser installed. 155 00:17:18.940 --> 00:17:25.079 Dane Geer: And it was, like, a tracker browser, and I had to get that all uninstalled, and… 156 00:17:25.270 --> 00:17:33.399 Dane Geer: Clean up everything, but man, they ended up losing money, because they went and paid to put this software on, and it was fake. 157 00:17:33.810 --> 00:17:34.440 Isabel Holdsworth: Aww. 158 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:37.280 Dane Geer: So, you know, you gotta be very careful with… 159 00:17:38.180 --> 00:17:43.630 Dane Geer: Things will pop up and say, oh, well, there's a problem here, you got a virus, or you got something going on. 160 00:17:44.250 --> 00:17:45.999 Dane Geer: Gotta be very, very careful. 161 00:17:46.580 --> 00:17:48.129 Dane Geer: In that situation. 162 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:53.459 David Sloan: Yeah, I guess that's… That's an example of how, you know. 163 00:17:53.830 --> 00:18:09.400 David Sloan: I started by asking, you know, what sort of accessibility barriers have gone away over the years, or what sort of user experience barriers have gone away, but the user experience itself has changed and become more complicated. Nothing's… nothing's staying the same, so… 164 00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:14.410 David Sloan: The way that we interact, you know, the prevalence of 165 00:18:14.690 --> 00:18:27.459 David Sloan: pop-ups and other notifications seems to have increased, and nowadays it's, you know, an AI assistant offering to help you do something. You know, I've just had to reinstall 166 00:18:27.580 --> 00:18:40.310 David Sloan: or reset my laptop and reinstall all sorts of software, and every… every application I install now, it's like, here's the AI assistant, you know, I'll tell you stuff, and just get out of my way, just… 167 00:18:40.490 --> 00:18:46.460 David Sloan: Yeah, so that… the user experience has got more complex, it feels like, over the last few years in general. 168 00:18:46.780 --> 00:18:48.030 Isabel Holdsworth: I love AI. 169 00:18:49.860 --> 00:18:57.089 David Sloan: So, okay, let's… we had to… we had to talk about it, because obviously it's… AI is something that's… 170 00:18:57.650 --> 00:19:02.980 David Sloan: influencing accessibility. So, yeah, let's get your thoughts on how it's making 171 00:19:03.210 --> 00:19:07.660 David Sloan: Doing stuff using tech easier or different, let's say. 172 00:19:09.450 --> 00:19:17.259 Isabel Holdsworth: Well, I've started playing around with it, asking it to create, accessible HTML pages, and it's definitely not there yet. 173 00:19:17.460 --> 00:19:22.479 Isabel Holdsworth: But it does make a reasonably good attempt, unless you want something a bit complicated. 174 00:19:22.750 --> 00:19:26.629 Isabel Holdsworth: So… I think there's a lot more work to be done there, but… 175 00:19:26.810 --> 00:19:33.480 Isabel Holdsworth: I'm really hoping that AI will help developers to increase accessibility, you know, on websites and things. 176 00:19:35.210 --> 00:19:36.659 David Sloan: How confident are you? 177 00:19:39.080 --> 00:19:39.850 David Sloan: Maybe that's, maybe that'. 178 00:19:39.850 --> 00:19:43.159 Isabel Holdsworth: If you ask me one question, I'm an optimist. 179 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:51.120 David Sloan: Yeah, how long do you think it will take before you see a positive impact on accessibility? 180 00:19:51.120 --> 00:19:56.500 Isabel Holdsworth: I don't think, it'll ever get accessibility completely right. I think that's a very, 181 00:19:57.840 --> 00:20:02.940 Isabel Holdsworth: It's a thing that requires thought and human interaction and testing. 182 00:20:04.930 --> 00:20:09.269 David Sloan: You also mentioned earlier, Isabel, Picture Smart AI, so that's… 183 00:20:09.580 --> 00:20:15.880 David Sloan: that's a… kind of thinking about AI from an assistive technology perspective. You know, we've heard a lot about how 184 00:20:16.070 --> 00:20:19.690 David Sloan: Assistive technology is kind of 185 00:20:20.530 --> 00:20:25.130 David Sloan: Is already, or could become superpowered through harnessing 186 00:20:25.340 --> 00:20:28.439 David Sloan: generative AI and other AI tools to 187 00:20:29.560 --> 00:20:39.549 David Sloan: to make stuff more… content more accessible. Tell us more about how you're using PictureSmart AI and other related 188 00:20:40.080 --> 00:20:41.480 David Sloan: AI services. 189 00:20:42.250 --> 00:20:44.819 Isabel Holdsworth: Well, I started using PictureSmart. 190 00:20:45.120 --> 00:20:51.599 Isabel Holdsworth: It was… when I started using it, it was in development, so I thought I'd be an early adopter and try it out. 191 00:20:52.100 --> 00:20:59.079 Isabel Holdsworth: So, my mom… I think I mentioned this somewhere before, my mum got married when she was 78. 192 00:20:59.930 --> 00:21:02.309 Isabel Holdsworth: And, I was at the wedding. 193 00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:14.550 Isabel Holdsworth: And I started running some of the pictures of her wedding through PictureSmart, and learned a lot of stuff that I did not know while I was at the wedding. The color of people's dresses and the style of them, 194 00:21:14.900 --> 00:21:26.730 Isabel Holdsworth: what the wedding cake looked like, and how the top table was set up. And I was sitting at the top table, and I missed a lot of this stuff, because I couldn't see it, and it was just, like, opening up a whole world. 195 00:21:26.860 --> 00:21:29.829 Isabel Holdsworth: So I got a bit excited about that, and then, 196 00:21:30.690 --> 00:21:40.499 Isabel Holdsworth: I tried it one time, and I came across a button on a website, and I didn't know what it did, so I asked Picturesmart to look at that, and it described the… 197 00:21:40.860 --> 00:21:44.789 Isabel Holdsworth: icon on the button for me, so I knew, 198 00:21:45.010 --> 00:21:48.890 Isabel Holdsworth: I was able to work out what the button could do, and I've just been using it ever since. 199 00:21:49.190 --> 00:21:53.199 Isabel Holdsworth: PictureSmart and OCR together, just… 200 00:21:53.730 --> 00:21:58.570 Isabel Holdsworth: You know, if I'm struggling with a screen, or even just if I want to know what the whole screen looks like. 201 00:21:58.810 --> 00:22:01.500 Isabel Holdsworth: Because I like to kind of map things out in my mind. 202 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:06.450 Isabel Holdsworth: I use it for that. I just use it for fun sometimes. 203 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:09.590 David Sloan: I guess if it's… 204 00:22:09.810 --> 00:22:19.240 David Sloan: if you're using it for fun, there's a positive experience in there. You know, you don't use something for fun if it's an unpleasant experience, so that means it's doing something, so… 205 00:22:19.660 --> 00:22:20.990 Dane Geer: That's kind of funny. 206 00:22:20.990 --> 00:22:26.600 David Sloan: exciting. Dane, are you using PictureSmart AI, or are there other AI tools that you're using. 207 00:22:26.600 --> 00:22:35.760 Dane Geer: Oh, I… I use a lot of, I like Gemini a lot. I also like, ChatGPT. 208 00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:46.509 Dane Geer: But in terms of, AI, I… I like being able to, like, at one point, I had this alarm clock, and I didn't know 209 00:22:46.740 --> 00:22:49.949 Dane Geer: How to reset the time, how to fix the time on it. 210 00:22:50.300 --> 00:22:53.769 Dane Geer: Well, I took a picture of it with, with, 211 00:22:54.260 --> 00:23:08.330 Dane Geer: with, Gemini, and she actually told me, oh, we'll hit this button here, and you'll be able to reset it. So, in terms like that, that really is very helpful, how AI is able to 212 00:23:08.650 --> 00:23:10.559 Dane Geer: Provide information. 213 00:23:10.710 --> 00:23:14.750 Dane Geer: And actually teaches you things that you might not know. 214 00:23:15.220 --> 00:23:17.869 Dane Geer: So, in that sense, it's really, really cool. 215 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:26.420 Dane Geer: You know, there's always good, you know, people always have good and bad things to say about AI, you know, people are worried about, you know. 216 00:23:26.540 --> 00:23:34.180 Dane Geer: Losing their jobs, or… or whatnot, but there's… there's no way, because you always have to have that human interaction. 217 00:23:34.830 --> 00:23:40.550 Dane Geer: It makes life a lot better when you actually have someone, you know, there to talk to, personable, and… 218 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.230 Dane Geer: you know, it's better. But yeah, AI's gone a lot… came a long way, and… 219 00:23:45.510 --> 00:23:51.509 Dane Geer: It'll keep growing, that's for sure. But, I like it. I like it a lot. It's really cool. 220 00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:54.280 Isabel Holdsworth: I was testing a website one time. 221 00:23:54.400 --> 00:24:07.169 Isabel Holdsworth: And I asked ChatGPT what the color of a… I think it was a button or some sort of control on the website. I needed to know what color it was. And it said… it kept saying, I can't give you an exact color scheme. 222 00:24:07.330 --> 00:24:15.729 Isabel Holdsworth: And I wrote, a prompt that said, look, I'm blind, I'm here by myself, I've got no one else to help me with this, please, can you help? And it actually did. 223 00:24:16.080 --> 00:24:18.510 Isabel Holdsworth: And I was very impressed with that. 224 00:24:19.350 --> 00:24:20.220 Isabel Holdsworth: And… 225 00:24:20.580 --> 00:24:22.820 David Sloan: For that one, did you… were you able to verify what… 226 00:24:23.620 --> 00:24:34.799 Isabel Holdsworth: Yes? Oh, yeah, no, you can't trust the chatbot for that kind of stuff. But it helped me, you know, get an idea if it was going to pass or fail. 227 00:24:34.950 --> 00:24:39.690 Isabel Holdsworth: And then I was able to verify with a colleague. So, yeah, it's useful that way. 228 00:24:39.910 --> 00:24:43.620 Isabel Holdsworth: And also, I like pushing the boundaries and seeing if I can get it to do stuff. 229 00:24:43.950 --> 00:24:46.020 Isabel Holdsworth: That it wouldn't normally do. 230 00:24:47.110 --> 00:24:49.060 David Sloan: Well, I think pushing boundaries is always… 231 00:24:49.260 --> 00:24:52.920 David Sloan: It's always worthwhile when you think about generative AI as a kind of. 232 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:53.570 Isabel Holdsworth: Yeah. 233 00:24:53.570 --> 00:24:57.259 David Sloan: Approximating to the mean. You know, pushing it into the 234 00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:04.050 David Sloan: The limits help… helps it kind of realize that, yeah, There's a… there's… 235 00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:09.460 David Sloan: Everything's more different than it might assume, in terms of predictability. 236 00:25:10.060 --> 00:25:13.730 Isabel Holdsworth: I just wanted to see how much pseudo-empathy I could get out of it, really. 237 00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:25.329 David Sloan: The thing that, you know, just listening to your examples over the last few minutes, the thing that's kind of really struck home is how AI is becoming 238 00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:38.589 David Sloan: more useful as a kind of initial technical support advisor. You know, giving you advice and overcoming things, you know, whether it's an accessibility challenge or more general 239 00:25:39.020 --> 00:25:43.040 David Sloan: Sort of give me some advice on… on… on, 240 00:25:43.400 --> 00:25:56.229 David Sloan: recovering from this situation, or help me do this task. And, you know, that kind of efficiency improvement. Again, putting, you know, being aware of that it may not be perfect, it may give you the wrong advice, but it seems like 241 00:25:56.350 --> 00:26:04.430 David Sloan: as an assistive technology in the broadest sense, it's… it's really starting to… to make a difference. And… and then also the… 242 00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:09.019 David Sloan: The way that you can interact with your tool of choice 243 00:26:09.250 --> 00:26:13.200 David Sloan: means that there's… there's not… You're not having accessibility issues 244 00:26:14.070 --> 00:26:20.979 David Sloan: trying to instruct it and get… get the feedback that's needed. So, again, that's… that's helping 245 00:26:21.390 --> 00:26:23.949 David Sloan: make tasks easier to perform. 246 00:26:25.080 --> 00:26:36.799 Isabel Holdsworth: I think right now, right now, AI is quite passive. I'm looking forward to a time when I can get it to do stuff, like, yesterday, a message popped up on my browser, and 247 00:26:37.060 --> 00:26:53.190 Isabel Holdsworth: it rendered it useless to me, because I couldn't get to the message to dismiss it, and I couldn't use the browser until I dismissed the message. Now, if I'd have been able to tell my AI bot to go off and tell me what that message was and click the appropriate button, that would have been amazing. 248 00:26:53.350 --> 00:26:59.299 Isabel Holdsworth: So, I guess I'm looking forward to a time when JAWS is harnessing AI in that way. 249 00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:02.319 Isabel Holdsworth: They're gonna be unstoppable. 250 00:27:02.320 --> 00:27:04.920 David Sloan: That's not far off. 251 00:27:05.070 --> 00:27:09.340 David Sloan: You know, some people will say we're here already, you know, being more… 252 00:27:09.780 --> 00:27:13.600 David Sloan: Sort of creative and harnessing agents to do stuff, but… 253 00:27:14.180 --> 00:27:17.380 David Sloan: Seems like we're… Pretty close to that, kind of. 254 00:27:17.860 --> 00:27:19.310 David Sloan: Situation, so… 255 00:27:19.870 --> 00:27:22.430 Isabel Holdsworth: That'd be quite an exciting day. 256 00:27:24.860 --> 00:27:25.290 David Sloan: from us. 257 00:27:25.290 --> 00:27:26.130 Dane Geer: Definitely. 258 00:27:26.550 --> 00:27:34.249 David Sloan: Dane, from a technical support perspective, do you see how your role and the things you do are changing through 259 00:27:34.630 --> 00:27:40.430 David Sloan: use of AI, especially if you're supporting other people using assistive technology. 260 00:27:41.050 --> 00:27:50.040 Dane Geer: Well, yes, I feel like the… especially with our, the Vispero Companion, and… And things like that. 261 00:27:50.350 --> 00:28:00.879 Dane Geer: I do use that a lot. I use ChatGPT a lot, because there's so many different scenarios and different keyboard commands, there's no way anybody 262 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:04.059 Dane Geer: You know, can remember them all. So… 263 00:28:04.740 --> 00:28:10.110 Dane Geer: Those are tools I do use every day to be able to, provide 264 00:28:10.390 --> 00:28:14.429 Dane Geer: the best technical support for all my customers that I can. 265 00:28:14.950 --> 00:28:18.770 Dane Geer: And get the correct answers for them as quickly as possible. 266 00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:27.490 Dane Geer: So, I know that a lot of times, you know, AI, you gotta be careful, because sometimes it might give you the wrong answer, but… 267 00:28:27.780 --> 00:28:35.719 Dane Geer: It's a good way to start, and it's a good way to get the information that you need to be able to help the customers quickly and efficiently. 268 00:28:37.090 --> 00:28:38.150 David Sloan: Yeah, for sure. 269 00:28:39.670 --> 00:28:40.420 David Sloan: Sweet. 270 00:28:40.740 --> 00:28:44.260 David Sloan: talked a lot, you know, we talked about AI, we talked a lot about, 271 00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:52.210 David Sloan: web applications and the sort of online user experience. What about… mobile… 272 00:28:52.820 --> 00:28:58.749 David Sloan: accessibility, native apps. Do you… do you see a kind of similar… 273 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:02.059 David Sloan: I don't want to say stagnation, but sort of… 274 00:29:02.420 --> 00:29:07.759 David Sloan: Has the progress towards improved accessibility and user experience, from your perspective, been 275 00:29:08.350 --> 00:29:18.050 David Sloan: how does the mobile experience compare to the sort of browser-based or the desktop experience, in your views? Dane, I'll ask you that first. 276 00:29:18.050 --> 00:29:21.899 Dane Geer: I've… well, I use iPhone. I mean, I've, 277 00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:25.399 Dane Geer: I've used iPhone, I've used Android, but I feel like… 278 00:29:25.740 --> 00:29:31.040 Dane Geer: that the accessibility for the iPhone has gotten a lot better. 279 00:29:31.510 --> 00:29:36.469 Dane Geer: One thing I wish they would work on more is the dictation. The dictation's kind of… 280 00:29:36.590 --> 00:29:42.020 Dane Geer: When you're dictating, because I dictate a lot for text messaging and all that. 281 00:29:42.340 --> 00:29:46.820 Dane Geer: Because, there again, I have the reading disabilities that I have. 282 00:29:47.380 --> 00:29:53.780 Dane Geer: But I do feel like it's came a long way from… from the beginning. I… I feel like, 283 00:29:54.500 --> 00:30:05.650 Dane Geer: it's really cool that they're, you know, implementing AI into certain things, like, I can take a picture of something, but I don't know, like, what type of animal it is, or… 284 00:30:06.040 --> 00:30:07.989 Dane Geer: And be able to… 285 00:30:08.130 --> 00:30:16.270 Dane Geer: send that picture through ChatGPT, and it'd give me an answer of what type of animal it is, or what plant it is. 286 00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:21.439 Dane Geer: And, you know, different things like that, because I have a lot of animals, I have… 287 00:30:21.760 --> 00:30:35.059 Dane Geer: a pig, a mini pig, and I have goats and all that. So, like, certain foods, I'll… I'll, you know, put it through ChatGPT or Gemini and say, okay, is this safe to give to my animal? 288 00:30:35.840 --> 00:30:39.279 Dane Geer: You know, different things like that. So I feel like, yes, 289 00:30:39.390 --> 00:30:44.329 Dane Geer: the iPhone has came a long way, the cameras are a lot better, I use the… 290 00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:50.869 Dane Geer: the magnification on my iPhone a lot, to be able to zoom in on things, to be able to see. 291 00:30:50.990 --> 00:30:53.760 Dane Geer: You know, text and things like that, so… 292 00:30:53.900 --> 00:30:58.729 Dane Geer: Yes, I feel like, it's definitely going the right direction, for sure. 293 00:30:59.630 --> 00:31:06.299 David Sloan: And again, it sounds like it's the phone itself that's being an assistive technology, as opposed to the apps on it. 294 00:31:06.300 --> 00:31:06.920 Isabel Holdsworth: Yes, that's true. 295 00:31:07.550 --> 00:31:09.620 David Sloan: That's amazing. Isabel, yeah, seriously. 296 00:31:09.620 --> 00:31:18.560 Isabel Holdsworth: This is what I was gonna say, the phones are getting better, but I'm not sure that the apps are. I think apps are lagging behind a little bit. 297 00:31:18.690 --> 00:31:21.490 Isabel Holdsworth: As far as accessibility goes. 298 00:31:21.710 --> 00:31:27.829 Isabel Holdsworth: Last night, I was trying to check in, for an airline flight, and 299 00:31:27.970 --> 00:31:30.800 Isabel Holdsworth: I had to get my partner to do it, because the app… 300 00:31:31.190 --> 00:31:35.710 Isabel Holdsworth: And the website, actually, are both so inaccessible that I cannot use either of them. 301 00:31:37.150 --> 00:31:41.200 Isabel Holdsworth: And especially those little… 302 00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:48.849 Isabel Holdsworth: There's, okay, so if I need to add my passport, there's a place where I have to put my passport into a frame. 303 00:31:50.840 --> 00:31:56.020 Isabel Holdsworth: hold the camera above the passport and fit it into this square frame, and I… it's something I just can't do. 304 00:31:57.030 --> 00:31:59.469 Isabel Holdsworth: But I was doing it… I was doing it for… 305 00:31:59.470 --> 00:32:02.749 David Sloan: Give you feedback on positioning something to take a picture. 306 00:32:02.950 --> 00:32:04.239 Isabel Holdsworth: It doesn't give me any feedback. 307 00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:05.740 David Sloan: Right. Ok, okay. 308 00:32:05.740 --> 00:32:16.830 Isabel Holdsworth: No, I was doing it for a bank today, actually, and it did. It gave me feedback. It said I had to move… move the phone slowly, and then it made a blink when I got it right, so that was amazing. 309 00:32:17.230 --> 00:32:20.820 Isabel Holdsworth: Again, another financial institution, so that was good. 310 00:32:22.130 --> 00:32:22.470 David Sloan: Another… 311 00:32:22.470 --> 00:32:23.180 Isabel Holdsworth: Yeah, no. 312 00:32:23.180 --> 00:32:29.510 David Sloan: Because banks are regulated, so are… so is the airline industry, and yet… 313 00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:32.999 Isabel Holdsworth: Unless it's a bunch of air. They don't care. 314 00:32:33.540 --> 00:32:33.870 David Sloan: Yeah. 315 00:32:33.870 --> 00:32:37.309 Isabel Holdsworth: We've been on at them for years and years, and they just… they do not care. 316 00:32:40.990 --> 00:32:42.380 David Sloan: Oh, that's frustrating. 317 00:32:42.990 --> 00:32:43.450 Isabel Holdsworth: Yeah, so… 318 00:32:44.930 --> 00:32:50.139 David Sloan: But in general, your… Your experience is that the phone is getting more useful. 319 00:32:50.910 --> 00:32:53.329 David Sloan: Even if the apps on the… on it aren't. 320 00:32:53.330 --> 00:32:59.790 Isabel Holdsworth: Yeah… But again, you know, I can… I can take a picture of the… 321 00:33:00.540 --> 00:33:07.900 Isabel Holdsworth: screen of my app and ask a chatbot to describe it for me, but I can't ask it to tap something. 322 00:33:08.300 --> 00:33:09.690 Isabel Holdsworth: So I'm still a bit… 323 00:33:10.260 --> 00:33:16.809 Isabel Holdsworth: You know, if I can't do something, I can maybe understand a bit better why I can't do it, but I still can't do it. 324 00:33:20.050 --> 00:33:24.519 David Sloan: Yeah, that's… that's kind of frustrating. You have more detail of what the problem is, but you. 325 00:33:24.520 --> 00:33:25.379 Isabel Holdsworth: Can't wait to. 326 00:33:25.380 --> 00:33:25.909 David Sloan: to solve the problem. 327 00:33:25.910 --> 00:33:26.680 Isabel Holdsworth: Yes. Depending. 328 00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:27.600 David Sloan: Incidentally, yeah. 329 00:33:27.600 --> 00:33:37.770 Isabel Holdsworth: Yes, but at least I can describe in a better way to somebody who I'm asking to help me fix it, but I still want to do it on my own, I don't want to ask anyone else to do it for me. 330 00:33:39.910 --> 00:33:43.450 David Sloan: Why not? You know, it's an independent operation, it's… 331 00:33:44.280 --> 00:33:47.249 David Sloan: Something that should be… should be achievable, given. 332 00:33:47.250 --> 00:33:48.010 Isabel Holdsworth: Yeah. 333 00:33:48.010 --> 00:33:49.820 David Sloan: All we know about accessibility. 334 00:33:50.580 --> 00:33:51.780 Dane Geer: So that's probably… 335 00:33:51.780 --> 00:33:57.559 David Sloan: Yeah, it's probably a good way to sort of turn as we sort of start to wrap up the conversation. 336 00:33:57.690 --> 00:34:01.779 David Sloan: And I'm gonna put each of you on the spot here, and ask you. 337 00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:08.880 David Sloan: What's the one thing you'd want Digital tech designers, developers. 338 00:34:09.070 --> 00:34:15.029 David Sloan: to know to make your experience as an assistive technology user easier. Dane, well. Can I ask you first? 339 00:34:15.590 --> 00:34:18.949 Dane Geer: Well, I feel like, basically. 340 00:34:19.219 --> 00:34:24.569 Dane Geer: it's… the way I think about it is, like, when you're building a house, you've got to have certain components 341 00:34:24.810 --> 00:34:26.600 Dane Geer: To make that house strong. 342 00:34:26.790 --> 00:34:32.749 Dane Geer: You know, you gotta have your plumbing, you gotta have your electricity, you gotta have all these things in place. 343 00:34:34.110 --> 00:34:43.870 Dane Geer: I feel like if they take and say, okay, when I first start building this website, if it's… the foundation has accessibility in mind. 344 00:34:44.130 --> 00:34:54.070 Dane Geer: Where it's built in, it would make things a lot better, because as you go along, and they go to update the website, you know, and add certain things. 345 00:34:54.190 --> 00:34:58.170 Dane Geer: They'll have that accessibility component already there to where they can 346 00:34:58.520 --> 00:35:01.919 Dane Geer: Quickly adjust things in accordance to 347 00:35:02.100 --> 00:35:07.449 Dane Geer: Make it more accessible for individuals that are blind or visually impaired. 348 00:35:09.680 --> 00:35:20.469 David Sloan: Yeah, well said. And with a strong foundation, it's less likely that what you build on top of it is going to fall down after the first gust of wind or whatever else that comes along. 349 00:35:21.270 --> 00:35:21.980 Dane Geer: exactly. 350 00:35:22.730 --> 00:35:27.439 David Sloan: What about you, Isabel? What's your one piece of advice to give to designers and developers? 351 00:35:28.200 --> 00:35:29.250 Isabel Holdsworth: And I only have one? 352 00:35:29.250 --> 00:35:33.339 David Sloan: I have… I have to… I have to limit it, right? 353 00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:34.260 Isabel Holdsworth: criminal? 354 00:35:34.260 --> 00:35:38.359 David Sloan: Share one, and if there's an urgent second one, maybe we'll let you sneak that in as well. 355 00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:39.580 Isabel Holdsworth: I'm… 356 00:35:40.590 --> 00:35:49.929 Isabel Holdsworth: learn about accessibility. You think it's boring, and you think it's, obstructive, but it really isn't, and once you get… get the bug, you'll not be able to let it go. 357 00:35:50.110 --> 00:35:51.960 Isabel Holdsworth: You'll love it. 358 00:35:52.290 --> 00:36:00.050 Isabel Holdsworth: And the difference that you're making to people, it'll really be worth your while. And don't ever come up with any ideas that are, like, flash. 359 00:36:00.260 --> 00:36:03.500 Isabel Holdsworth: Flash is the one thing that I do not miss. 360 00:36:04.690 --> 00:36:06.399 Isabel Holdsworth: I'm so glad to be rid of it. 361 00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:08.069 Isabel Holdsworth: So, yeah. 362 00:36:08.690 --> 00:36:10.130 David Sloan: That's… yeah, I haven't… 363 00:36:10.130 --> 00:36:11.359 Isabel Holdsworth: I sneaked it in. 364 00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:11.990 David Sloan: Yes. 365 00:36:13.970 --> 00:36:15.960 David Sloan: Oh, I'd forgotten about Flash. 366 00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:17.510 Isabel Holdsworth: Oh my goodness. 367 00:36:17.510 --> 00:36:19.420 David Sloan: Websites, wow, yeah. 368 00:36:19.420 --> 00:36:25.790 Isabel Holdsworth: That was awful. I used to work embedding Flash into websites, and I hate it. 369 00:36:26.820 --> 00:36:27.330 David Sloan: Wow. 370 00:36:28.250 --> 00:36:33.540 David Sloan: Yeah, and I think the point that you made there at the end, that this work is fun, and it's… 371 00:36:33.740 --> 00:36:37.590 David Sloan: It's stimulating, it's creative, and it's rewarding. 372 00:36:37.710 --> 00:36:44.709 David Sloan: And… Yeah, we talk about the laws and the regulations and the standards that you've got to follow. 373 00:36:44.970 --> 00:36:52.770 David Sloan: But ultimately, it's… When you turn it around and say, we're making better products for more people, then… 374 00:36:53.270 --> 00:36:58.890 David Sloan: It just… it just changes the tone of the conversation and makes it something that I've 375 00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:03.800 David Sloan: I think is… is… is more… more appealing, and something that sounds like… 376 00:37:04.260 --> 00:37:07.880 David Sloan: It's a… it's a worthwhile endeavor. Why would you not want to do that? 377 00:37:08.930 --> 00:37:15.619 Isabel Holdsworth: People are making such a big difference to people who already have to work harder. 378 00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:20.720 Isabel Holdsworth: To get the same… I haven't put that right, sorry. 379 00:37:20.980 --> 00:37:29.150 David Sloan: Yeah, no, I get what you're saying, and… People who are already You know, finding, finding. 380 00:37:29.270 --> 00:37:35.190 David Sloan: Ways and being creative, but anything that anyone else can do to make that easier and reduce the effort. 381 00:37:35.190 --> 00:37:35.970 Isabel Holdsworth: Absolutely. 382 00:37:35.970 --> 00:37:37.119 David Sloan: That's well worth it. 383 00:37:37.120 --> 00:37:40.929 Dane Geer: Yes, it's all about being independent, being able to be independent. 384 00:37:41.040 --> 00:37:42.710 Dane Geer: And not have to… 385 00:37:42.980 --> 00:37:51.020 Dane Geer: depend on anybody else, you can just get things done. It makes you feel good, so… It's definitely important. 386 00:37:51.510 --> 00:37:52.100 David Sloan: Yep. 387 00:37:52.100 --> 00:38:05.660 Isabel Holdsworth: You know, if you add a pretty design to your website, that's nice, and people think, oh, that's nice, or maybe not. But if you add structure to your website, suddenly I can do something on it that I couldn't do before, and that's where the big difference comes in. 388 00:38:06.850 --> 00:38:09.079 David Sloan: Yep, the enabling factor. 389 00:38:09.210 --> 00:38:10.100 Isabel Holdsworth: Yeah. 390 00:38:11.050 --> 00:38:25.099 David Sloan: Well, that's a great… a great summary, and thank you both so much for sharing your experiences as assistive technology users, and your advice, and hopefully that's advice that digital product teams and content creators 391 00:38:25.290 --> 00:38:30.680 David Sloan: Can follow to make their user experience better for more people. 392 00:38:31.690 --> 00:38:43.570 David Sloan: So, now you know the state of accessibility, and David Sloan, thanking Isabel Holdsworth and Dane Geer, reminding you that the state of accessibility is always changing, so please help us affect change.